WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.878 --> 00:00:03.461
(upbeat music)
2
00:00:08.100 --> 00:00:10.410
Welcome to the "Accessible Learning Experience"
3
00:00:10.410 --> 00:00:12.300
where we help you turn learning barriers
4
00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.370
into learning opportunities.
5
00:00:14.370 --> 00:00:18.420
On this episode, we welcome Zebadiah Hall to the podcast.
6
00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:20.910
Zebadiah is Vice President of Diversity, Equity
7
00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:24.210
and Inclusion at the University of Wyoming and he has
8
00:00:24.210 --> 00:00:26.820
a long career in the field of disability services
9
00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:28.680
in higher education.
10
00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:32.040
Most recently he was director of Student Disability Services
11
00:00:32.040 --> 00:00:36.870
at Cornell University from 2019 to 2022,
12
00:00:36.870 --> 00:00:39.270
and prior to that he was the director of the Access
13
00:00:39.270 --> 00:00:42.990
and Accommodations Resource Center at Valparaiso University
14
00:00:42.990 --> 00:00:45.363
in Indiana for five years.
15
00:00:46.351 --> 00:00:48.270
Our conversation focuses on how we can celebrate
16
00:00:48.270 --> 00:00:51.660
both the intersectionality and variability learners bring
17
00:00:51.660 --> 00:00:55.080
into every learning environment and through the application
18
00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:56.670
of Universal Design for Learning,
19
00:00:56.670 --> 00:01:00.390
create those communities of belonging for all learners.
20
00:01:00.390 --> 00:01:03.120
Here then is my conversation with Zebadiah.
21
00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:04.830
Hi Zebadiah.
22
00:01:04.830 --> 00:01:06.510
Let's start out by getting to know you
23
00:01:06.510 --> 00:01:09.150
and your accessibility story and your why.
24
00:01:09.150 --> 00:01:11.820
What motivated you to pursue this work that you do
25
00:01:11.820 --> 00:01:14.070
and what experiences have shaped your perspective
26
00:01:14.070 --> 00:01:14.903
on that work?
27
00:01:14.903 --> 00:01:17.340
Happy to be in space and time with you.
28
00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:20.610
I'm Zebadiah Hall, identify as a black man,
29
00:01:20.610 --> 00:01:22.800
use he/him pronouns.
30
00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:25.830
Really salient question about why I do the work
31
00:01:25.830 --> 00:01:28.170
or how'd I get into the work.
32
00:01:28.170 --> 00:01:29.250
Ever since I was born,
33
00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:33.480
my father's been on disability and so doing disability work
34
00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:35.670
and working with disabled people has always been
35
00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:37.440
a part of my life,
36
00:01:37.440 --> 00:01:39.630
before I even realized it was part of my life.
37
00:01:39.630 --> 00:01:43.680
Where it really became noticeable to me is when I was in
38
00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.350
middle school and my father would drop me off for practice
39
00:01:46.350 --> 00:01:49.530
or pick me up for practice and they were kind of joking,
40
00:01:49.530 --> 00:01:51.840
tease me like, why's your dad always picking you up?
41
00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:54.570
Where's your mom at and I was like, my mom's at work
42
00:01:54.570 --> 00:01:56.670
and it wasn't until that timeframe,
43
00:01:56.670 --> 00:01:58.980
until I got into middle school to truly understand
44
00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:01.467
that my father was disabled and was on disability
45
00:02:01.467 --> 00:02:03.453
and my mother was a breadwinner,
46
00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:06.270
which during that time with most of my friends,
47
00:02:06.270 --> 00:02:08.610
the father was a breadwinner and the mother was the one
48
00:02:08.610 --> 00:02:12.120
picking up my peers and dropping them off
49
00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:13.680
and so that's where it really came from
50
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.680
and then I understanding the dynamic of me
51
00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:20.280
being a black male and what oppression looks like
52
00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:22.290
that makes me do the work that I do
53
00:02:22.290 --> 00:02:23.490
and continuously do the work.
54
00:02:23.490 --> 00:02:25.410
But there's a direct connection with the disability
55
00:02:25.410 --> 00:02:27.390
'cause my father was on disability
56
00:02:27.390 --> 00:02:30.000
and then some of my uncles and aunties had disabilities
57
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.980
and some of my other cousins and peer groups
58
00:02:31.980 --> 00:02:33.390
also have disabilities
59
00:02:33.390 --> 00:02:35.370
and that's where it actually came from
60
00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:36.930
and that's where it stems from.
61
00:02:36.930 --> 00:02:39.000
Thank you so much for sharing that
62
00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:41.580
and being vulnerable with us and and sharing that part
63
00:02:41.580 --> 00:02:43.800
of your experience that I didn't know about
64
00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.740
and as you just mentioned, you have a history,
65
00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:49.650
not only a personal experience with disability
66
00:02:49.650 --> 00:02:52.350
but also in your many professional roles.
67
00:02:52.350 --> 00:02:55.410
You've held leadership roles in disability services
68
00:02:55.410 --> 00:02:57.330
and I know that many of our audience members
69
00:02:57.330 --> 00:03:00.330
who listen to this podcast have similar roles
70
00:03:00.330 --> 00:03:02.040
in disability services.
71
00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:05.490
So in that role you've brought UDL into the work
72
00:03:05.490 --> 00:03:07.200
of the disability services office
73
00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:08.280
and I don't know about you,
74
00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.010
but I've found that often people don't make
75
00:03:11.010 --> 00:03:14.220
those connections between disability services
76
00:03:14.220 --> 00:03:17.430
and accommodations and Universal Design for Learning
77
00:03:17.430 --> 00:03:19.410
and I know that that's something that's near
78
00:03:19.410 --> 00:03:21.600
and dear to your heart is making those connections
79
00:03:21.600 --> 00:03:23.160
between those concepts.
80
00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:25.140
So can you share some insight with our audience
81
00:03:25.140 --> 00:03:26.880
about how you think about those things
82
00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:29.400
and how you bring them together in your work?
83
00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.850
Definitely and really, really important question,
84
00:03:32.850 --> 00:03:35.670
I'll start not talking about that and loop back around,
85
00:03:35.670 --> 00:03:38.460
but one of the things I played college basketball,
86
00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:40.537
my coach used to always say, "Point the thumb,
87
00:03:40.537 --> 00:03:41.370
"not the finger
88
00:03:41.370 --> 00:03:42.817
"'cause the thumb points at you
89
00:03:42.817 --> 00:03:45.030
"and the fingers points at other people."
90
00:03:45.030 --> 00:03:48.150
And so one of the things when I think about that concept
91
00:03:48.150 --> 00:03:50.220
and pointing at me and when I think about
92
00:03:50.220 --> 00:03:53.820
disability support services and disability resource offices,
93
00:03:53.820 --> 00:03:55.777
we're always going to faculty and saying,
94
00:03:55.777 --> 00:03:57.630
"You need to use UDL."
95
00:03:57.630 --> 00:04:00.000
We're going to our project managers and facilities
96
00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.860
and saying, "You need to use UD."
97
00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:03.960
We're never looking at ourselves
98
00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.930
and the barriers that we pose for students to utilize
99
00:04:06.930 --> 00:04:08.190
our services,
100
00:04:08.190 --> 00:04:10.800
and that's one of the reasons I kind of say point the thumb
101
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:13.800
and not the finger because we need to point at ourselves.
102
00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:15.990
We need to engage with ourselves and our policies,
103
00:04:15.990 --> 00:04:18.540
our procedures in our disability offices,
104
00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:21.090
and what are we doing to create barriers for students
105
00:04:21.090 --> 00:04:22.590
not to access our services.
106
00:04:22.590 --> 00:04:25.620
A great example of that would be some places you have
107
00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:28.020
to have a meeting with somebody in a disability office
108
00:04:28.020 --> 00:04:29.910
to receive accommodations.
109
00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:32.010
Well, we're in a day and age where all students
110
00:04:32.010 --> 00:04:33.690
don't want to meet with all people
111
00:04:33.690 --> 00:04:36.330
and sometimes our identities themselves
112
00:04:36.330 --> 00:04:39.360
are barriers to other people utilizing our services
113
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.300
and so how do we actually look internally at our process,
114
00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:45.390
policies and procedures and then try to apply UDL
115
00:04:45.390 --> 00:04:46.830
to those principles?
116
00:04:46.830 --> 00:04:49.140
And how do you do it in such a way that you are reaching
117
00:04:49.140 --> 00:04:51.380
the marginalized identities but you're also doing it
118
00:04:51.380 --> 00:04:53.190
in a way that is taking care of the staff
119
00:04:53.190 --> 00:04:54.870
that's actually determining accommodation
120
00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:57.000
'cause that work is really hard too
121
00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.960
and so some of the things that we did was we took our names
122
00:05:00.960 --> 00:05:03.990
off accommodation letters and so then people
123
00:05:03.990 --> 00:05:05.700
didn't have to only work with Zebadiah
124
00:05:05.700 --> 00:05:07.020
that was on my caseload.
125
00:05:07.020 --> 00:05:10.680
So I removed caseloads from the counselors
126
00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.450
that would determine the accommodations.
127
00:05:12.450 --> 00:05:14.550
And I say counselor because at that point in time
128
00:05:14.550 --> 00:05:15.420
they were called counselors.
129
00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:16.740
Another thing we did was we call
130
00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:18.600
a disability access consultant,
131
00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.210
which is another part of UDL because how do you engage
132
00:05:21.210 --> 00:05:23.670
in different ways and how do you express yourselves
133
00:05:23.670 --> 00:05:24.503
in different ways?
134
00:05:24.503 --> 00:05:26.580
Expressing myself as a disability counselor
135
00:05:26.580 --> 00:05:28.860
is very different in expressing myself
136
00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:30.900
as a disability access consultant.
137
00:05:30.900 --> 00:05:32.640
So we did title changes,
138
00:05:32.640 --> 00:05:34.830
we looked at job description and then we looked at
139
00:05:34.830 --> 00:05:38.940
our processes and procedures and what we tried to do was say
140
00:05:38.940 --> 00:05:40.440
where within our processes,
141
00:05:40.440 --> 00:05:42.840
where within our procedures are there barriers
142
00:05:42.840 --> 00:05:45.240
for our students to receive our services?
143
00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.020
Case in point, medical documentation sometimes is a barrier
144
00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:51.240
and so how do we look at medical documentation?
145
00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.360
How do we put that through the lens of UDL so we can engage
146
00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.430
with our students that have medical documentation,
147
00:05:56.430 --> 00:05:58.080
engage with our students who do not have
148
00:05:58.080 --> 00:05:59.730
medical documentation.
149
00:05:59.730 --> 00:06:02.070
Another thing was looking at our meetings.
150
00:06:02.070 --> 00:06:03.780
If we meet with every student,
151
00:06:03.780 --> 00:06:07.230
we have a load of 6,000 students that we work with,
152
00:06:07.230 --> 00:06:09.480
it was gonna be impossible to meet with all those students
153
00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:10.950
in the first couple weeks.
154
00:06:10.950 --> 00:06:12.690
Using Universal Design for Learning,
155
00:06:12.690 --> 00:06:15.840
we gave students different ways to engage with our office.
156
00:06:15.840 --> 00:06:18.570
So now we're gonna only meet with the students that need
157
00:06:18.570 --> 00:06:21.330
to meet with us and the students who do not need
158
00:06:21.330 --> 00:06:23.700
to meet with us will still receive their services
159
00:06:23.700 --> 00:06:25.590
and so really taking a critical lens
160
00:06:25.590 --> 00:06:27.930
and looking at yourself, policy, procedures
161
00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:31.320
and processes and then saying where are the barriers at.
162
00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:33.570
Now that we know that this is the barrier,
163
00:06:33.570 --> 00:06:37.500
how do we use UDL to make sure that our students, staff,
164
00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:39.780
and faculty can engage with our services?
165
00:06:39.780 --> 00:06:41.520
Well thank you so much, Zebadiah
166
00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:43.170
for all that helpful information
167
00:06:43.170 --> 00:06:45.210
and I love how you're really braiding.
168
00:06:45.210 --> 00:06:47.790
I like that idea of braiding these concepts together
169
00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:50.640
of Universal Design for Learning, access,
170
00:06:50.640 --> 00:06:52.710
accessibility and equity
171
00:06:52.710 --> 00:06:55.440
and I know that you've had a transition recently
172
00:06:55.440 --> 00:06:57.780
in that you're now the first full-time Vice President
173
00:06:57.780 --> 00:07:01.410
of Diversity and Inclusion at the University of Wyoming.
174
00:07:01.410 --> 00:07:04.800
First of all, congratulations on that, that's amazing.
175
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.037
What experiences really prepared you for that role?
176
00:07:08.037 --> 00:07:10.740
And you've already spoken about that a little bit,
177
00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:12.180
about your personal experiences,
178
00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:14.670
but what has surprised you the most about the work
179
00:07:14.670 --> 00:07:15.630
that you're doing now
180
00:07:15.630 --> 00:07:18.570
and then explain to our audience more what your role entails
181
00:07:18.570 --> 00:07:20.730
at the University of Wyoming.
182
00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:24.390
Yeah, really, really great question.
183
00:07:24.390 --> 00:07:27.450
I think one of the things that's really important
184
00:07:27.450 --> 00:07:31.200
is understanding that universal design and UDL,
185
00:07:31.200 --> 00:07:35.130
our frameworks of equity, our frameworks of inclusion,
186
00:07:35.130 --> 00:07:37.860
our frameworks of justice,
187
00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:40.140
being in the role currently as a vice president
188
00:07:40.140 --> 00:07:42.330
and thank you for the kind words as well,
189
00:07:42.330 --> 00:07:45.210
but being in this role as a vice president gives me a chance
190
00:07:45.210 --> 00:07:47.970
to elevate the work that I was currently doing
191
00:07:47.970 --> 00:07:49.920
and do it on a larger scale.
192
00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.110
One of the things that we used to talk about a lot
193
00:07:52.110 --> 00:07:56.280
when in disability services is intersectionality
194
00:07:56.280 --> 00:07:59.010
and no person is one identity
195
00:07:59.010 --> 00:08:01.080
and so when we're trying to work on this
196
00:08:01.080 --> 00:08:03.030
and now I'm doing it at the vice president level,
197
00:08:03.030 --> 00:08:06.120
I get to take that same intersectionality principle.
198
00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:10.320
I get to take that same UD and UDL principles conversation
199
00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:13.740
at a larger scale that gives me the ability to work on
200
00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:15.390
things and help others out.
201
00:08:15.390 --> 00:08:18.450
For example, when we think about individuals
202
00:08:18.450 --> 00:08:19.950
that have to do certain things,
203
00:08:19.950 --> 00:08:23.030
there might be times where they have to do field work.
204
00:08:23.030 --> 00:08:25.020
And in that field work you need certain equipments,
205
00:08:25.020 --> 00:08:26.940
where our lower social economic students
206
00:08:26.940 --> 00:08:28.560
can't afford that equipment
207
00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.470
and so we have less students going into those majors.
208
00:08:31.470 --> 00:08:35.788
As the VP of DEI, maybe I can get funding in that space,
209
00:08:35.788 --> 00:08:38.850
but the intersectionality of lower social economics,
210
00:08:38.850 --> 00:08:40.950
individuals being in the STEM field,
211
00:08:40.950 --> 00:08:42.660
that intersectionality piece there,
212
00:08:42.660 --> 00:08:46.110
now I can get funding to support lower social economics.
213
00:08:46.110 --> 00:08:47.760
So still using the UDL,
214
00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:51.360
still using the universal design for universal design,
215
00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.940
still looking at intersectionality to do this work
216
00:08:53.940 --> 00:08:55.383
at a really high level,
217
00:08:56.310 --> 00:08:59.460
it excites me to be able to do this work now
218
00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:02.640
because if you look at our historical context,
219
00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:05.312
say if you go back to the 1880s,
220
00:09:05.312 --> 00:09:07.380
we classified a lot of individuals as disabled.
221
00:09:07.380 --> 00:09:09.810
The reason we did that is because we thought disability
222
00:09:09.810 --> 00:09:13.170
was a bad word, we thought disabled people were bad.
223
00:09:13.170 --> 00:09:16.410
Disabled people aren't bad and disability isn't bad.
224
00:09:16.410 --> 00:09:18.270
But if English was a second language,
225
00:09:18.270 --> 00:09:20.310
sometimes it's important for our European brothers
226
00:09:20.310 --> 00:09:23.370
and sisters to know that if English was a second language,
227
00:09:23.370 --> 00:09:25.560
they also called you disabled 'cause they gave you tests
228
00:09:25.560 --> 00:09:27.210
in different languages, right?
229
00:09:27.210 --> 00:09:29.190
If you were poor, you're considered disabled.
230
00:09:29.190 --> 00:09:32.370
If your enslaved or ran away from the plantation,
231
00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:33.930
they gave you a mental health diagnosis
232
00:09:33.930 --> 00:09:35.340
and called you disabled.
233
00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:37.890
And so the reason it's important for people to understand
234
00:09:37.890 --> 00:09:40.980
that historical context is because we will allow people
235
00:09:40.980 --> 00:09:43.830
to utilize those same principles to our marginalized
236
00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:46.770
and minoritized identities and those individuals
237
00:09:46.770 --> 00:09:49.020
will not have access to participate.
238
00:09:49.020 --> 00:09:51.120
And sometimes we don't bring disability
239
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.267
in the overall conversation of diversity, equity, inclusion,
240
00:09:54.267 --> 00:09:58.350
and disability give us a lens through intersectionality
241
00:09:58.350 --> 00:09:59.790
to talk about some of these things.
242
00:09:59.790 --> 00:10:02.640
And I try to utilize that in the work that we do now.
243
00:10:02.640 --> 00:10:05.580
But one of the main things that I think is important
244
00:10:05.580 --> 00:10:08.220
is how do I use Universal Design for Learning?
245
00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:10.740
DEI right now is really polarized,
246
00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:15.420
and so how do I express what DEI means in different ways,
247
00:10:15.420 --> 00:10:17.850
different nuances and all of those different things
248
00:10:17.850 --> 00:10:19.410
from a UDL principle.
249
00:10:19.410 --> 00:10:22.650
So then we can have everyone engaging with DEI
250
00:10:22.650 --> 00:10:25.470
versus thinking it's just these polarized terminology
251
00:10:25.470 --> 00:10:29.610
and that's another way of using UDL is how do I take UDL
252
00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:32.310
and break down what diversity equity inclusion means
253
00:10:32.310 --> 00:10:35.130
so that everybody have access to participate
254
00:10:35.130 --> 00:10:37.530
in the way that they want to participate in DEI.
255
00:10:38.490 --> 00:10:41.520
So basically we have to model diversity, equity,
256
00:10:41.520 --> 00:10:44.580
and inclusion in our diversity, equity, and inclusion work,
257
00:10:44.580 --> 00:10:48.480
don't we and I also appreciate what you had to say about,
258
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.170
you know, the proud movement behind disability
259
00:10:52.170 --> 00:10:54.720
in our country that doesn't always get recognized
260
00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:56.880
and that that word is not bad, right?
261
00:10:56.880 --> 00:10:59.910
There's a hashtag on Twitter, say the word,
262
00:10:59.910 --> 00:11:03.090
where people are encouraging others to, you know,
263
00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:05.190
use the word disability because there's nothing
264
00:11:05.190 --> 00:11:07.140
to be ashamed about it.
265
00:11:07.140 --> 00:11:10.110
There's a proud history of people that have sought
266
00:11:10.110 --> 00:11:14.070
our civil rights and so it's something to build on.
267
00:11:14.070 --> 00:11:16.953
So speaking of that sort of movement,
268
00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:20.190
and we talked about modeling DEI,
269
00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:22.740
but also modeling accessibility, right,
270
00:11:22.740 --> 00:11:26.220
and I found that often these movements or these efforts
271
00:11:26.220 --> 00:11:28.350
are disconnected from each other.
272
00:11:28.350 --> 00:11:30.030
When we do DEI work,
273
00:11:30.030 --> 00:11:32.520
seems to be focusing one type of office.
274
00:11:32.520 --> 00:11:35.700
When we do accessibility work seems to be focused in another
275
00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:36.900
type of office.
276
00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:38.550
How do we bring those things together?
277
00:11:38.550 --> 00:11:41.550
What are some tips that you would share for basically
278
00:11:41.550 --> 00:11:45.210
engaging systemic work around those two concepts?
279
00:11:45.210 --> 00:11:46.809
Where would they start?
280
00:11:46.809 --> 00:11:49.110
One of the things I'll start with and go back to
281
00:11:49.110 --> 00:11:51.390
a little bit is just one reason of elevating
282
00:11:51.390 --> 00:11:53.433
the word disability and disabled.
283
00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.160
If we had a black student organization,
284
00:11:56.160 --> 00:11:58.200
we would never tell them to take black out.
285
00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:59.730
If we had a woman's organization,
286
00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:02.040
we would never tell them to take women out, right?
287
00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:05.670
And going to that place of saying the word disability
288
00:12:05.670 --> 00:12:08.490
is not bad and we need to elevate the word itself
289
00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:10.950
and so once again, that's using UDL,
290
00:12:10.950 --> 00:12:12.690
a little bit of giving different examples
291
00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:14.340
for people to engage in the work.
292
00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:17.130
If you can sometimes give them a metaphor
293
00:12:17.130 --> 00:12:19.110
or something in a different frame,
294
00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.320
then maybe they can sometimes understand it a little bit.
295
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.110
As we think about tips for individuals
296
00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:28.800
to make the connectivity, understanding the history,
297
00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:31.050
some of the historical things that I went over I think
298
00:12:31.050 --> 00:12:33.270
is really important for people to know.
299
00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:36.330
I think also understanding the mother of disability
300
00:12:36.330 --> 00:12:39.030
just passed the great legend, Judy Human,
301
00:12:39.030 --> 00:12:41.910
and understand when she was leading the sit-in
302
00:12:41.910 --> 00:12:42.920
and doing those kind of things,
303
00:12:42.920 --> 00:12:44.310
it was the Black Panther Party
304
00:12:44.310 --> 00:12:46.530
that was actually feeding individuals.
305
00:12:46.530 --> 00:12:50.070
It was the LGBTQ community actually bathing them
306
00:12:50.070 --> 00:12:53.400
and washing their hair and things like that
307
00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:55.440
and so I think the intersectionality,
308
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:58.470
I think the working together has already always happened.
309
00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:00.240
When you think about the terminology
310
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.030
disability justice itself,
311
00:13:03.030 --> 00:13:05.070
that came from individuals being in
312
00:13:05.070 --> 00:13:08.820
the queer community space, actually talking about this
313
00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:11.370
and that's where disability justice came from.
314
00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:14.760
And so there are gonna be times where the disabled community
315
00:13:14.760 --> 00:13:16.800
do not feel like they belong in spaces,
316
00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:18.510
they belong in all spaces
317
00:13:18.510 --> 00:13:21.060
and so all spaces should be equipped to receive
318
00:13:21.060 --> 00:13:23.820
our disabled community in the intersectionality
319
00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:25.650
of what that actually looks like.
320
00:13:25.650 --> 00:13:27.300
And that's one of the ways in which I think
321
00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:28.140
we can work together,
322
00:13:28.140 --> 00:13:29.700
I think it's important for the people
323
00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.640
in the disability office to go meet with the people
324
00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:34.020
in multicultural affairs.
325
00:13:34.020 --> 00:13:35.760
I think the people in multicultural affairs
326
00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:38.460
should be meeting with the people in the disability office
327
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:40.590
and understand that synergy.
328
00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:43.170
I think when we begin to think like that,
329
00:13:43.170 --> 00:13:45.420
we actually bring UDL in a different way.
330
00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:47.010
And I'll give you an example and then I'll give you
331
00:13:47.010 --> 00:13:49.860
a personal example of how UDL works as well.
332
00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:52.530
But when COVID happened,
333
00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:56.370
there was a lot of people attacking our Asian community.
334
00:13:56.370 --> 00:13:59.490
What I did as the Director of Disability Support Services,
335
00:13:59.490 --> 00:14:02.070
I used New York Human Rights Law,
336
00:14:02.070 --> 00:14:05.700
which allowed for temporary accommodations and we did
337
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:09.360
COVID accommodations out of the disability office.
338
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.020
So when they received this disability accommodation letter,
339
00:14:13.020 --> 00:14:15.390
they didn't know that the student had Covid or not
340
00:14:15.390 --> 00:14:17.760
because they were coming through my office.
341
00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:21.000
The intersectionality of the Asian community
342
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.080
receiving hate due to COVID says how do I use UDL
343
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.690
to protect these students and give them the services
344
00:14:27.690 --> 00:14:28.770
that they need?
345
00:14:28.770 --> 00:14:30.210
Not just the Asian student,
346
00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:31.740
any student that actually had it,
347
00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.320
but what it did was it protected the Asian community
348
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.170
so it didn't look like only Asians were dealing with this.
349
00:14:37.170 --> 00:14:40.320
Then it protected the people that came down with Covid.
350
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.100
So then the community didn't ostracize those individuals
351
00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:47.460
and that's a way of looking at the intersectionality, right?
352
00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:50.580
Of the Asian community and the hate that they were receiving
353
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.070
or the individuals that came down with COVID
354
00:14:53.070 --> 00:14:55.500
and their intersectionality of how the community
355
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:56.850
was gonna treat them
356
00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:59.580
and so then we used our disability office
357
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:01.860
to actually accommodate those individuals
358
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:05.220
when they need to stay in a room in isolation
359
00:15:05.220 --> 00:15:06.053
and quarantine.
360
00:15:06.053 --> 00:15:08.400
We had different folks working with us on that,
361
00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:11.100
but we were actually making the accommodation decisions,
362
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:13.410
how long they were gonna be out of the class,
363
00:15:13.410 --> 00:15:15.630
help support when they're going into isolation
364
00:15:15.630 --> 00:15:16.620
and quarantine.
365
00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:20.550
And so if you look at the actual problem at hand,
366
00:15:20.550 --> 00:15:22.890
look at intersectionality and then say
367
00:15:22.890 --> 00:15:25.800
how can I apply UDL to this?
368
00:15:25.800 --> 00:15:28.170
Well then it's sent a different message about Covid
369
00:15:28.170 --> 00:15:30.630
because now disability support services doing it
370
00:15:30.630 --> 00:15:32.610
from a centralized standpoint,
371
00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:35.400
it protected certain communities and things like that.
372
00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:38.400
That's one way to think about how that actually works
373
00:15:38.400 --> 00:15:41.370
is looking at your services that you provide,
374
00:15:41.370 --> 00:15:44.610
working with other entities and seeing how that work.
375
00:15:44.610 --> 00:15:47.190
Another example of that was monkeypox.
376
00:15:47.190 --> 00:15:49.170
When Monkeypox kind of hit the surface,
377
00:15:49.170 --> 00:15:50.760
they were saying they had to do with
378
00:15:50.760 --> 00:15:52.290
just the LGBT community.
379
00:15:52.290 --> 00:15:54.660
It was like it was AIDS all over again.
380
00:15:54.660 --> 00:15:59.660
What we did was we worked with the Rainbow Resource Center,
381
00:15:59.850 --> 00:16:02.760
where most of the LGBT community was going
382
00:16:02.760 --> 00:16:05.610
and operating with and we helped them understand
383
00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:08.340
the services that we could give and that was a message
384
00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:10.650
for them to give to their community.
385
00:16:10.650 --> 00:16:13.170
And so that was another way of using UDL.
386
00:16:13.170 --> 00:16:14.940
Sometimes when you are using UDL,
387
00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:17.460
you're not the messenger because it needs to be expressed
388
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.970
in different ways and that's how you use somebody
389
00:16:20.970 --> 00:16:22.290
within those identities,
390
00:16:22.290 --> 00:16:24.690
within those communities from a UDL standpoint
391
00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:26.820
to make that actual connection.
392
00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.090
On a personal note, there are times where I will post things
393
00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:34.470
on Facebook and when I'm posting pictures on Facebook,
394
00:16:34.470 --> 00:16:37.890
I'll kind of write like, oh, it's Leslie, Leslie's my wife.
395
00:16:37.890 --> 00:16:39.810
I'll say, oh, it's Leslie and I taking a picture.
396
00:16:39.810 --> 00:16:42.570
Or Leslie looks gorgeous in her orange dress at such
397
00:16:42.570 --> 00:16:43.620
and such place.
398
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:44.640
The reason I'm doing that,
399
00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:47.040
because some of my friends are blind,
400
00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:49.260
I have some people that says, oh my God,
401
00:16:49.260 --> 00:16:51.990
he really loves Leslie 'cause he document every picture
402
00:16:51.990 --> 00:16:54.000
and everything that's going on, right?
403
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.100
So from a UDL standpoint,
404
00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.740
I'm doing it because I love Leslie to death
405
00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:00.270
and from a UDL standpoint,
406
00:17:00.270 --> 00:17:03.450
I'm doing it because I want others to have access
407
00:17:03.450 --> 00:17:04.560
to participate
408
00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:07.350
and that's a way in which we can help make these connections
409
00:17:07.350 --> 00:17:09.690
for people that they don't realize has actually happened.
410
00:17:09.690 --> 00:17:11.940
It keeps my wife happy, it keeps my friends engaged.
411
00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:13.230
You can't beat that, right?
412
00:17:13.230 --> 00:17:15.900
But that's another way of just personally applying
413
00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:19.800
some of these accessibility principles in such a way.
414
00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:22.440
When I expressed that, some people say, okay,
415
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.360
now I know what's going on In that photo,
416
00:17:24.360 --> 00:17:26.610
when I expressed it, other people said, oh,
417
00:17:26.610 --> 00:17:28.350
he really loves his wife, right?
418
00:17:28.350 --> 00:17:29.670
And he's really romantic, right?
419
00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:31.920
So that's how, no matter what you do,
420
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:33.630
people are gonna take it in different ways
421
00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:35.010
and that's the different ways in which
422
00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:38.310
we can express ourselves sometimes through UDL.
423
00:17:38.310 --> 00:17:40.470
Well if nothing else, I've picked up a tip
424
00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:42.930
for keeping harmony at home.
425
00:17:42.930 --> 00:17:45.480
When I share my photos on Facebook now,
426
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.510
I'm gonna make sure to include great descriptions
427
00:17:48.510 --> 00:17:52.620
of my significant other, so thank you for that tip,
428
00:17:52.620 --> 00:17:54.180
that personal connection.
429
00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:56.550
And I wanna go back a little bit.
430
00:17:56.550 --> 00:17:58.560
Again, we're gonna practice UDL, right,
431
00:17:58.560 --> 00:17:59.880
as part of this podcast
432
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.240
and we've used the term intersectionality a number of times,
433
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.880
but there may be people in our audience for whom that term
434
00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:09.630
is new, so we wanna make sure that we define that term.
435
00:18:09.630 --> 00:18:13.350
And you know, I saw a quote somewhere, I think it's,
436
00:18:13.350 --> 00:18:17.118
and you may correct me here, but the quote was,
437
00:18:17.118 --> 00:18:19.080
"We don't live single issue lives."
438
00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:21.000
And I think you've summarized that,
439
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.430
like you can be African American,
440
00:18:23.430 --> 00:18:26.250
have a disability and be going through Covid
441
00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:28.080
and all of those things intersect
442
00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.770
and mean that you require a specific set of services.
443
00:18:31.770 --> 00:18:34.260
So can you explain from your perspective,
444
00:18:34.260 --> 00:18:37.260
how would you define intersectionality?
445
00:18:37.260 --> 00:18:41.730
Definitely, really great question on intersectionality.
446
00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:45.210
Kimberly Crenshaw actually came up with intersectionality.
447
00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:48.120
And so if people wanna go look up Kimberly Crenshaw,
448
00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:48.953
they can do that.
449
00:18:48.953 --> 00:18:51.990
Kimberly Crenshaw's actually work in the legal field
450
00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:53.850
and she's also faculty as well.
451
00:18:53.850 --> 00:18:56.610
What Kimberly Crenshaw was saying,
452
00:18:56.610 --> 00:18:59.160
what's happening to me is not happening to me
453
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.300
because I'm black
454
00:19:00.300 --> 00:19:02.940
because black men are not experiencing this.
455
00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:04.650
What's happening to me,
456
00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:07.260
this is not happening to me because I'm a woman
457
00:19:07.260 --> 00:19:09.630
because white women are not experiencing this.
458
00:19:09.630 --> 00:19:12.300
It's happening to me because I'm black and woman
459
00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:16.530
and the intersectionality of those two identities is the way
460
00:19:16.530 --> 00:19:19.200
in which I'm being treated in this environment.
461
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.970
Intersectionality doesn't always mean
462
00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:22.350
that you're being treated negative.
463
00:19:22.350 --> 00:19:24.180
Sometimes that can give you a privilege,
464
00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:27.810
based off the intersectionality that's happening
465
00:19:27.810 --> 00:19:28.710
within that space.
466
00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:31.410
But what it is is looking at more than one identity.
467
00:19:31.410 --> 00:19:33.210
None of us is one identity.
468
00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:35.670
Looking at our intersecting identities
469
00:19:35.670 --> 00:19:38.520
and understanding how that intersecting identities shows up
470
00:19:38.520 --> 00:19:40.560
into these spaces.
471
00:19:40.560 --> 00:19:42.420
One of the things that I think is important
472
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:44.640
when we just look at the landscape.
473
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.730
As a male, that give me access to things that sometimes
474
00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:50.070
our women do not have access to.
475
00:19:50.070 --> 00:19:52.470
As a black male, that doesn't mean I still have
476
00:19:52.470 --> 00:19:55.560
that same access as my white male counterparts.
477
00:19:55.560 --> 00:19:58.650
And that's why the intersectionality is really important.
478
00:19:58.650 --> 00:20:00.900
When I think about intersectionality
479
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:03.570
and we're thinking about it in a disability sense,
480
00:20:03.570 --> 00:20:07.140
understanding that women are not treated the same way as men
481
00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:09.387
in engineering and if we're not looking at
482
00:20:09.387 --> 00:20:11.280
the intersectionality of that,
483
00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:14.400
we might never be able to accommodate that woman
484
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:16.380
and what I mean by that,
485
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.080
sometimes we might just put accommodations in place,
486
00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:22.440
not recognize that it's the environment itself
487
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.800
that are posing the barriers or aggravating that condition.
488
00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:27.540
And that's why it's so important to understand
489
00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:28.380
what's going on.
490
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.980
Our men are not treated the same way as women in nursing
491
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:33.960
because that tend to be more of a field
492
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.000
dominated by women, right?
493
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.230
When you think about the stem
494
00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:38.640
and you think about these other things,
495
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.920
if you're not thinking about the environment
496
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.270
and the intersectionality of the people
497
00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:43.830
within those environments,
498
00:20:43.830 --> 00:20:46.080
then you might never truly be able to understand
499
00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:49.020
what the lived experience are of those individuals.
500
00:20:49.020 --> 00:20:52.050
So then it's harder to put resources and stuff in place.
501
00:20:52.050 --> 00:20:54.130
If I wanted to only look at UDL
502
00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:56.130
and I didn't look at intersectionality,
503
00:20:56.130 --> 00:20:57.570
I would put a lot of things in place
504
00:20:57.570 --> 00:20:59.610
that didn't work for individuals.
505
00:20:59.610 --> 00:21:01.140
And that's what's really important.
506
00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:04.710
I think when we are, the education system in general,
507
00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:07.260
we try to teach to the average student,
508
00:21:07.260 --> 00:21:09.600
there's no such thing as an average student
509
00:21:09.600 --> 00:21:10.860
and that's what's really hard.
510
00:21:10.860 --> 00:21:12.030
I could be average height,
511
00:21:12.030 --> 00:21:14.040
but my arms aren't average length.
512
00:21:14.040 --> 00:21:16.770
And if we talk to the edges,
513
00:21:16.770 --> 00:21:18.930
we will then teach to everybody
514
00:21:18.930 --> 00:21:21.599
and then the individuals in between,
515
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:23.580
and I think that's something that intersectionality gives us
516
00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:27.060
the ability to think about is how do we teach to the margins
517
00:21:27.060 --> 00:21:28.440
and not teach to the average
518
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:30.453
'cause nobody's actually average.
519
00:21:31.300 --> 00:21:34.020
Right, right, it's a myth that there's an average
520
00:21:34.020 --> 00:21:36.450
and we need to keep that into consideration
521
00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:39.390
when we design environments because as you said,
522
00:21:39.390 --> 00:21:40.920
the barriers are in the environment
523
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:42.810
and I think you bring up a great point.
524
00:21:42.810 --> 00:21:45.390
We often think of just the physical barriers
525
00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:47.610
in the environment, but there are things
526
00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:49.740
like stereotype threat.
527
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:51.120
If you're not familiar with that term,
528
00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:53.820
I encourage you to check out the work of Claude Steele
529
00:21:53.820 --> 00:21:56.310
and the book "Whistling Vivaldi."
530
00:21:56.310 --> 00:21:59.130
It's a great book that addresses that issue
531
00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:00.210
of stereotype threat.
532
00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:01.650
So you mentioned, you know,
533
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:06.000
if you're a man in a field that typically men don't go into,
534
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.940
like nursing or if you're a woman going into field
535
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:10.530
like engineering,
536
00:22:10.530 --> 00:22:13.320
there's not just the physical barriers in the environment
537
00:22:13.320 --> 00:22:15.150
or the digital barriers
538
00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:18.000
when materials are not designed with accessibility in mind.
539
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.090
But there's also the feelings of belonging
540
00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:23.490
that you may experience or not experience
541
00:22:23.490 --> 00:22:25.440
as a result of stereotype threat.
542
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:29.460
So what are some ways in which we can make our environments
543
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:31.320
places of belonging.
544
00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:34.140
From your long history of working in this space,
545
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.510
how do we create those places of belonging?
546
00:22:36.510 --> 00:22:39.450
I think once again, I know we keep talking about UDL,
547
00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:43.440
but I think UDL and looking at our policies and procedures
548
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:46.503
and applying UDL to our policies and procedures.
549
00:22:47.820 --> 00:22:50.550
I think sometimes our policies and procedures are written
550
00:22:50.550 --> 00:22:53.040
in such a way that they're very,
551
00:22:53.040 --> 00:22:55.560
from a scarcity fear-based model
552
00:22:55.560 --> 00:22:57.990
and so we're gonna write it in such a way that we know
553
00:22:57.990 --> 00:22:59.520
nobody can skim the system,
554
00:22:59.520 --> 00:23:01.830
which we know that that's not true
555
00:23:01.830 --> 00:23:04.650
and what we do is actually hurt the marginalized identities
556
00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:06.240
when we do those kind of things.
557
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.360
for example, when our people in disability resource centers
558
00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:11.640
saying we're not gonna let people gain the system,
559
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:13.830
we're gonna require medical documentation.
560
00:23:13.830 --> 00:23:17.100
You're saying what we're gonna do is make this process
561
00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:20.430
for affluent people that can afford it, right?
562
00:23:20.430 --> 00:23:22.890
Because you could still go pay for the medical documentation
563
00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:25.410
and have no diagnosis or have no medical conditions
564
00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:27.420
or have no disabilities at all.
565
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.280
And so how do we be mindful of the way
566
00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:31.920
in which we're writing a policies and procedures?
567
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.860
Also, it's this great saying that says nothing for us
568
00:23:34.860 --> 00:23:36.000
without us.
569
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.220
How do we make sure we go to our staff, students,
570
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:42.210
and faculty and ask what they need before we start to design
571
00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:44.040
and create the things that we're thinking about
572
00:23:44.040 --> 00:23:46.890
because we need input from the people themselves.
573
00:23:46.890 --> 00:23:50.490
And most of the time there is top down decision making.
574
00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:52.980
When we make decisions at the top and I say we,
575
00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:54.600
because I sit as a vice president,
576
00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:56.370
I'm not boots on the ground.
577
00:23:56.370 --> 00:23:58.650
I need to talk to the people that are boots on the ground
578
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:01.080
actually doing the work before I make a decision high up
579
00:24:01.080 --> 00:24:02.640
in my role.
580
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.340
Part of what I think is really important to do this
581
00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:07.560
is how do you become a learning organization?
582
00:24:07.560 --> 00:24:10.830
A learning organization allow people closest to the problems
583
00:24:10.830 --> 00:24:13.050
to solve them, right?
584
00:24:13.050 --> 00:24:16.230
What I need is people to solve the problems and I need to be
585
00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:18.780
their conduit to help them get from point A to point B
586
00:24:18.780 --> 00:24:20.640
when they run into barriers.
587
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.460
I shouldn't come down from my seat to try to come down
588
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:24.900
and engage, right?
589
00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:27.060
And I don't like come down in a sense of a hierarchy.
590
00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:30.600
But the reality is I sit as a senior administration.
591
00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:32.820
The last thing I need to do is show up in spaces
592
00:24:32.820 --> 00:24:34.410
and tell people what to do.
593
00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:36.630
I need to show up in spaces and ask questions
594
00:24:36.630 --> 00:24:38.760
and give space and time for people to articulate
595
00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:41.070
what their needs are and then work with them
596
00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:42.870
to co-create solutions
597
00:24:42.870 --> 00:24:45.660
and I think sometimes we're not doing those kind of things.
598
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:48.720
The only way that you can truly do UDL is to engage
599
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:50.010
other folks to understand
600
00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:51.600
how they want to express themselves
601
00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:52.827
and all of those kind of things
602
00:24:52.827 --> 00:24:55.980
and I just think sometimes we fail to do those things
603
00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:59.280
and so how do we actually go out, engage the people,
604
00:24:59.280 --> 00:25:02.430
engage the community, ask them what their needs are,
605
00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:05.040
and then co-create solutions with them?
606
00:25:05.040 --> 00:25:06.810
I think that's one of the biggest ways in which
607
00:25:06.810 --> 00:25:07.890
we can do that.
608
00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:11.310
It also gives us the ability, right,
609
00:25:11.310 --> 00:25:14.250
that has power to make decisions or have power
610
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:18.330
over resources to hear that information in a different vein.
611
00:25:18.330 --> 00:25:20.070
UDL all over again, right?
612
00:25:20.070 --> 00:25:22.230
So UDL is through and through everything,
613
00:25:22.230 --> 00:25:24.420
it's not me just coming in and doing UDL.
614
00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:25.830
When I hear from other people,
615
00:25:25.830 --> 00:25:28.530
I'm allowing UDL to actually be modeled
616
00:25:28.530 --> 00:25:30.660
and that's what I think is also important
617
00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:31.680
is for us to model.
618
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.020
You keep saying we're modeling UDL.
619
00:25:34.020 --> 00:25:35.670
How do we actually model it and practice?
620
00:25:35.670 --> 00:25:37.560
You go to people and ask them what they need
621
00:25:37.560 --> 00:25:38.490
before you co-create
622
00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:40.020
'cause that gives you ability
623
00:25:40.020 --> 00:25:41.790
to know that there's a problem.
624
00:25:41.790 --> 00:25:44.640
But you hear that problem from a very different way
625
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.430
'cause that same problem exists in all of the colleges,
626
00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:50.550
but it affects all of those colleges very differently.
627
00:25:50.550 --> 00:25:52.770
And not hearing all those different viewpoints
628
00:25:52.770 --> 00:25:54.120
make me put in a solution
629
00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:56.500
that's probably not gonna be fruitful for enough people.
630
00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:59.490
And I think how do we model UDL just in our approach
631
00:25:59.490 --> 00:26:00.483
and how we lead?
632
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.070
Yeah, I hear the words co-creation
633
00:26:05.070 --> 00:26:06.810
and I hear the words engagement
634
00:26:06.810 --> 00:26:09.660
and too often we miss that part of UDL.
635
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:13.410
That UDL is a process of co-creation and that's really
636
00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:15.300
what leads to true engagement, right?
637
00:26:15.300 --> 00:26:18.660
Is when people feel like their needs and their preferences
638
00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:21.900
have been considered when we design a learning environment.
639
00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.180
We haven't designed a learning environment for them,
640
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:27.480
we've designed a learning environment with them, right,
641
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:29.190
and that's a different conversation.
642
00:26:29.190 --> 00:26:32.670
So thank you so much for bringing those points up.
643
00:26:32.670 --> 00:26:37.670
So I always love to leave the listener on a hopeful tone.
644
00:26:38.580 --> 00:26:41.430
And so I want to ask you, if you were to look forward
645
00:26:41.430 --> 00:26:45.570
five years from now, what is your vision?
646
00:26:45.570 --> 00:26:48.000
What would you like to see happen in terms of
647
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.400
what do we wanna be in five years?
648
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.360
What's like the, this is what we should all work for
649
00:26:54.360 --> 00:26:56.607
when it comes to making these connections for people
650
00:26:56.607 --> 00:26:59.043
and all the issues that we've talked about?
651
00:26:59.043 --> 00:27:00.727
DEI, accessibility in UDL.
652
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.733
I think it's a couple different points that I would make.
653
00:27:06.570 --> 00:27:08.250
It won't happen in five years,
654
00:27:08.250 --> 00:27:11.700
but we philosophically have to be thinking from a landscape
655
00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:15.000
of I'm trying to work myself out of a job.
656
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.380
If I'm still working 20 years from now doing DEI work,
657
00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:21.900
which we probably will 'cause that's just the landscape,
658
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:23.970
that means things are not improving in the way
659
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:25.320
that they should,
660
00:27:25.320 --> 00:27:28.080
and so if you're doing diversity, equity, inclusion work,
661
00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:29.850
access work, any of those things,
662
00:27:29.850 --> 00:27:33.510
we should be working to work ourselves out of a job.
663
00:27:33.510 --> 00:27:34.980
That's what I would say is number one,
664
00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:37.260
from just a philosophical standpoint.
665
00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:40.140
What that means is it gets me out of a mindset of thinking
666
00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:42.810
I'm the savior and I think sometimes when we're working
667
00:27:42.810 --> 00:27:44.100
with minoritized groups,
668
00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:45.960
we're going into this space as a savior
669
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.840
and that's not healthy to that community at all.
670
00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:50.543
I think the second point that I would make
671
00:27:50.543 --> 00:27:53.340
is that it's not about us personally.
672
00:27:53.340 --> 00:27:55.200
I don't do this work for Zebediah.
673
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.420
I do this work for others and it's so many times
674
00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:58.590
when we're in this spaces
675
00:27:58.590 --> 00:28:00.660
and we're working with minoritized identities
676
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:02.910
or marginalized individuals,
677
00:28:02.910 --> 00:28:07.170
we take things personal or we make it all about ourselves.
678
00:28:07.170 --> 00:28:08.610
It's not about me
679
00:28:08.610 --> 00:28:11.160
and I need to keep that at the forefront of my brain.
680
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.290
And then just from a positive note,
681
00:28:13.290 --> 00:28:17.700
I know everybody is not as excited about this group as I am.
682
00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.760
I'm super excited about Gen Z, right.
683
00:28:20.760 --> 00:28:24.000
Gen Z just takes things to a whole nother level.
684
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.670
I thought we was big and bad coming up.
685
00:28:26.670 --> 00:28:28.710
We have nothing on Gen Z
686
00:28:28.710 --> 00:28:32.970
and as long as we can keep Gen Z having the same energy
687
00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:36.390
that they have around diversity, equity, inclusion,
688
00:28:36.390 --> 00:28:39.240
one of the things is they don't accept diversity, equity,
689
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:40.653
inclusion, they expect it.
690
00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:45.780
The more we can rely on our younger generation to help us
691
00:28:45.780 --> 00:28:48.690
engage in ways that we didn't think about before,
692
00:28:48.690 --> 00:28:50.250
I think we're gonna be more fruitful.
693
00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:51.960
When you think about being hopeful,
694
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.970
I think about the younger generation,
695
00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:57.120
and I know sometimes the younger generation actually agitate
696
00:28:57.120 --> 00:28:58.710
people that are older than them.
697
00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:03.540
They should because sometimes we did things to go along
698
00:29:03.540 --> 00:29:05.970
to fit in, and that's not this group
699
00:29:05.970 --> 00:29:09.630
that's coming behind us and I'm truly appreciative of that.
700
00:29:09.630 --> 00:29:11.700
And so the more that we can listen
701
00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:13.710
to the younger generation,
702
00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:15.780
the more we can give them constructive,
703
00:29:15.780 --> 00:29:18.750
appropriate guidance, I think that's important.
704
00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:21.030
Sometimes in our roles, we give bad guidance
705
00:29:21.030 --> 00:29:23.340
and shut down our younger generations
706
00:29:23.340 --> 00:29:25.830
just because we couldn't do it or we didn't see
707
00:29:25.830 --> 00:29:28.680
a path forward that way when we were coming along.
708
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.140
I just think this Gen Z generation makes me
709
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:32.460
really, really hopeful.
710
00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:36.600
And the more people we can teach about UDL
711
00:29:36.600 --> 00:29:37.680
makes me really hopeful.
712
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.680
The more we can talk about UDL outside of the classroom
713
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.100
makes me hopeful as well.
714
00:29:44.100 --> 00:29:46.560
I'm not saying we should take it out of the classroom.
715
00:29:46.560 --> 00:29:49.410
UDL just could be applied in other spaces,
716
00:29:49.410 --> 00:29:51.600
not just the classroom
717
00:29:51.600 --> 00:29:54.810
and I think the more we can expand people minds about UDL
718
00:29:54.810 --> 00:29:56.640
outside of the classroom,
719
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.253
the better it would be for all parties involved.
720
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.520
I completely agree, right.
721
00:30:02.520 --> 00:30:05.280
We want a system that goes beyond the classroom
722
00:30:05.280 --> 00:30:07.950
because our library needs to be accessible.
723
00:30:07.950 --> 00:30:11.640
Our labs need to be accessible in welcoming spaces.
724
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.710
Our community groups that are associated
725
00:30:13.710 --> 00:30:15.420
with our institutions, higher learning,
726
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:18.480
whether they be clubs or community outreach,
727
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.430
all of those things need to be accessible.
728
00:30:20.430 --> 00:30:22.890
They need to be spaces where people belong
729
00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:26.400
and I do share your enthusiasm about Gen Z as well,
730
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.550
and I liken it to, in my own experience,
731
00:30:29.550 --> 00:30:31.950
growing up with assistive technology,
732
00:30:31.950 --> 00:30:33.960
Previous generations didn't have that, right?
733
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:35.370
That's a privilege that I have.
734
00:30:35.370 --> 00:30:39.000
That I get to live in a world where assistive technology is,
735
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.910
you can find it, you know, you don't have to go too far
736
00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:43.500
to find it nowadays.
737
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:45.600
So again, I'm hopeful, like you said,
738
00:30:45.600 --> 00:30:48.810
this generation expects that we create a better world
739
00:30:48.810 --> 00:30:50.880
for them, so I think that's a hopeful message
740
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.490
to leave the conversation on.
741
00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:55.980
But you know, you mentioned Gen Z, they agitate
742
00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:57.540
and one of the ways that they agitate
743
00:30:57.540 --> 00:30:59.100
is through social media.
744
00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:01.320
So if people wanted to stay in touch with you
745
00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:03.900
because they love what they heard on this podcast,
746
00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:04.847
how do they connect with you,
747
00:31:04.847 --> 00:31:08.340
'cause I know it's all about connection with Gen Z.
748
00:31:08.340 --> 00:31:11.430
Yeah, the best way would probably be on LinkedIn,
749
00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:13.740
just under Zebadiah Hall.
750
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:14.940
You can find me on LinkedIn.
751
00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:17.910
If you shoot me a message, I'll make sure that I respond
752
00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:19.470
and get back to you.
753
00:31:19.470 --> 00:31:22.050
But that's probably the best way to get in contact with me.
754
00:31:22.050 --> 00:31:25.260
I also have an Instagram under Zebadiah Hall as well.
755
00:31:25.260 --> 00:31:28.200
So whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn,
756
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:29.733
we can connect those ways.
757
00:31:31.350 --> 00:31:33.000
And I'm sure in Instagram,
758
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.910
you do have great descriptions of your significant other,
759
00:31:35.910 --> 00:31:40.770
right, so that you can keep the harmony going, I'm sure.
760
00:31:40.770 --> 00:31:43.007
Have to keep the harmony going.
761
00:31:43.007 --> 00:31:46.590
I actually don't post to Facebook or Instagram
762
00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:49.680
as much anymore as I used to, but I'm still connected
763
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.903
that way, but totally on LinkedIn.
764
00:31:52.867 --> 00:31:54.420
Great, so there you have it.
765
00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:58.590
That's the way to continue these conversations with Zebadiah
766
00:31:58.590 --> 00:32:00.270
and thank you so much Zebadiah,
767
00:32:00.270 --> 00:32:02.010
not only for the work that you do,
768
00:32:02.010 --> 00:32:04.620
but for sharing your insights with our audience
769
00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:07.140
on this podcast, we really, really appreciate it.
770
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:08.340
Thank you so much.
771
00:32:08.340 --> 00:32:12.360
No problem and thank you for all that you all are doing.
772
00:32:12.360 --> 00:32:14.460
We have podcasts about all kind of things.
773
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.310
The more we can have podcasts about how do we change culture
774
00:32:17.310 --> 00:32:20.040
and shift paradigms, I really, really appreciate the work
775
00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:22.170
that you all are doing as well.
776
00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:24.000
Thanks for tuning in to this episode
777
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.010
of the "Accessible Learning Experience",
778
00:32:26.010 --> 00:32:27.510
brought to you by the National Center
779
00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:30.360
on Accessible Educational Materials at Cast.
780
00:32:30.360 --> 00:32:33.990
You can find us on the web at aem.cast.org.
781
00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:36.840
There you'll find show notes we link to all of the resources
782
00:32:36.840 --> 00:32:38.880
mentioned on each episode.
783
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.400
Thanks again for listening and remember,
784
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.495
accessibility is everyone's responsibility.
785
00:32:44.495 --> 00:32:47.078
(upbeat music)
786
00:32:55.950 --> 00:32:58.050
The contents of this podcast were developed
787
00:32:58.050 --> 00:32:59.460
under a cooperative agreement
788
00:32:59.460 --> 00:33:01.620
with the US Department of Education.
789
00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:04.170
However, those contents do not necessarily represent
790
00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:06.450
the policy of the US Department of Education,
791
00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:07.950
and you should not assume endorsement
792
00:33:07.950 --> 00:33:09.250
by the federal government.